The thing you leave out however, is the Bridging Scriptures! People who share a religion are linked by their shared scriptures and to some extent the culture around it.

With your indulgence, I would suggest there is a world of difference between there being a “shared scriptures” and the actual sharing of those scriptures. Our separate communities may be united in the mutual recognition of The Book of Eshu as our source of authority and inspiration while we all remain individually unaware of its content. We are satisfied with our social, family, and personal lives as interpreted to us by those who have studied the book (or so they assure us), and to follow their lead. When I reach the point where their teachings are no longer believable to me it will be because I have no first-hand knowledge of their source or its author.

I’ve noticed lately a desire amongst some Christians to separate themselves from other professed Christians who’ve “got it wrong” or “not really taken the Bible seriously”.

While I appreciate your perspective on my comments, they are not meant to reflect such sentiments. By acknowledging the existence of professing Christians whose views differ (often radically) from mine, I do not infer a desire to be separated from them, even though they may choose to separate themselves from me.

Who is it who decides who is a real Christian and who is not?

God. No one else is entitled or enabled to make that judgment. There will be “educated” guesses, of course, some apparently easier made than others: Hitler, Pol Pot; Billy Graham, etc. But we cannot know with certainty the hidden conditions of heart and mind or final-moment conversions , and therefore ought not pontificate on the state of another’s soul.

How does this intersect with those who are saved and those who are not?

God told His prophet Samuel, …the LORD sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the LORD looks on the heart (1Sam.16:7). God will always have the last word as is proper, we being His creations. As Jesus told Peter when the latter asked concerning John’s destiny, …what is that to you? You follow me!” The life of a Christian is one of personal involvement with and discipleship to the God and Lord of the universe at the deepest (and from the disciple’s position ever-deepening) level– nothing less qualifies.

Thanks for joining in here.

Likewise, if I were to identify myself as an “Eshuist” to all who encounter me, my doing so would not correctly identify me with you.

Hehe, that’s an interesting example! The thing you leave out however, is the Bridging Scriptures! People who share a religion are linked by their shared scriptures and to some extent the culture around it. Except in the most strictly enforced orthodoxies there will be variation in beliefs, but with a common scripture there is (almost certainly) some common beliefs. Eshuists who’d never met and had no historical, cultural or scriptural link could believe utterly different things, chosen arbitrarily.

There really is no Christian “thing,” and yes, to believe in Christianity is wrong. That would be a belief in a belief. Christianity is belief in Christ. I hope you understand that I am not hair-splitting here, but trying to establish a vital distinction.

Interesting. I’ve noticed lately a desire amongst some Christians to separate themselves from other professed Christians who’ve “got it wrong” or “not really taken the Bible seriously”. For my part if someone tells me they’re a Christian, I’d assume that means they believe Jesus Christ died for their sins. I certainly did. I doubt I was as knowledgeable about it as you, but in all reasonable senses of the word I was a Christian. Who is it who decides who is a real Christian and who is not? How does this intersect with those who are saved and those who are not?

The confusion about God’s alleged message(s) leads people to wonder how good a communicator he is.

I won’t attempt to define sin but will offer what is to me a clear example: spilling leek and potato soup under any circumstance, asteroid or no… ;)

Agreed. I’m irked by any kind of waste, especially if I have to clean up afterwards!

If I lived in a community in which all or most considered and called themselves Eshuists, I might come to think of myself as an Eshuits and represent myself as such to those outside the community. Likewise, if I were to identify myself as an “Eshuist” to all who encounter me, my doing so would not correctly identify me with you. But those observing my behavior would form an association between us in their thinking. All this could happen even if I had never met you, never read or heard a word you had said, and never known anyone who had had direct contact with you. But I would not know you, nor your thoughts or ways.

So to have experienced “church” or religious education, training, associations, etc. is not necessarily to have known or to have been associated with God or Christ.
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Although we have travelled what may appear to be opposite-heading pathways, my experience has in some ways paralleled yours in that, as a Christian, I am now more open to and intrigued by the personal views of non-christians than I was as an unbeliever.

…I can assure you that in real life I’m not so cool headed and eloquent. I try to be, but I often get confused, frustrated and distracted onto topics I had not intended discussing and end up forgetting to say what I had intended!

We surely have this in common. :(

Lorena said: I also hate it when they say, “If you have any questions, let me know.” I find it so patronizing. It sounds like a doctor telling the patient to call if they have any problems. So the underlying assumption is that the offerer is knowledgeable and I am not.

To that I will reply that, in my personal experience, many (perhaps most) professing Christians cannot accurately account for why they think they believe as they claim to. The patronizing stance is likely taken as a defense move against hearing arguments they cannot answer, the immediate objective being to make the hearer feel inferior. At least that was how I used it when I thought I was a Christian but didn’t understand what a Christian really is.

I’ve been there and done the Christian thing. …I eventually came to the conclusion that my faith in Christianity was wrong.

There really is no Christian “thing,” and yes, to believe in Christianity is wrong. That would be a belief in a belief. Christianity is belief in Christ. I hope you understand that I am not hair-splitting here, but trying to establish a vital distinction.

Finally (for now), I won’t attempt to define sin but will offer what is to me a clear example: spilling leek and potato soup under any circumstance, asteroid or no… ;)

Thanks for the discussion venue, and very best wishes,
al

The other side may become just as heated as before; my temperature tends to stay down now.

I aim to avoid anyone getting heated. Emotions interfere with rational thinking. As an aside, rational thinking can also interfere with emotions. If you’re upset and panicking, then counting backward from 200 in steps of 7 can help calm you down.

In any case, if you actually want people to understand your arguments rather than to embarrass themselves with emotional outbursts, aiming to keep it calm and friendly is the best way, IMO.

There is one other reason for engaging in these types of exchanges — it often helps me better formulate my own beliefs. It provides a forum for me to thresh out ideas that may have been swirling in my head for some time.

Yes! Thank you for mentioning that, it’s a good point that I unwittingly left out of my post.

That’s kind of you to say. However, I can assure you that in real life I’m not so cool headed and eloquent. I try to be, but I often get confused, frustrated and distracted onto topics I had not intended discussing and end up forgetting to say what I had intended! The Internet is far easier in that respect. I wrote about my experiences of debating face-to-face a while ago.

I also hate it when they say, “If you have any questions, let me know.” I find it so patronizing.

Hehe, I think such statements are generally intended well, but yeah it can come across as an implicit assumption of having all the answers or being right.

I’m glad to hear you had a similar experience to me with regard to the questions of skeptics. It’s encouraging to know that such questions can change people’s minds, albeit slowly. I certainly took years to get to grips with my own and others’ questions. I was a skeptic long before I was an atheist.

There is one other reason for engaging in these types of exchanges — it often helps me better formulate my own beliefs. It provides a forum for me to thresh out ideas that may have been swirling in my head for some time.

I also hate it when they say, “If you have any questions, let me know.” I find it so patronizing. It sounds like a doctor telling the patient to call if they have any problems. So the underlying assumption is that the offerer is knowledgeable and I am not.

I, too, want to change people’s minds, particularly when it comes to religion, because I find it so Victorian (in the old-fashioned sense). And truly, asking questions that reveal the glaring contradictions is the way to go.

It was those questions that skeptics asked that eventually helped me walk away. The questions entered my brain and nagged me. They also accumulate–in the same area of the brain probably. And one reaches a point when the questions can no longer be ignored.